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| Best way to install solid shel rings? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6084 |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:37 pm ] |
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I have to install some solid MOP shell rings for a rosette and I am wondering about the best way to go about doing this. The rosette will be BRW with a MOP ring inside and outside of the BRW. I bought the curved shell pieces from SM and each piece is about 1 in long. I know that with the laminate shell you just break so that it fits nicely around the curves, and I have done a number of rosettes like that. But I am wondering with the solid shell if it is better to cut the pieces into smaller lengths instead of breaking them. Some advice would be helpful. Josh |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:50 pm ] |
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Josh, I have done a few like this, what I did was to get a flat piece of marble and lay some PA sand paper over it, then just as if you were fitting a nut or saddle, sand the end of each piece, fitting them one at a time end to end to get a nice perfect joint. 
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:59 pm ] |
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Josh, you can use teflon or not. I've done it both ways and teflon seemed easier but adds a step. The OLF SJ 2 project I just put in the shell after grinding the ends with a dremel in a little jig, quick and easy, until the last piece, kinda sweated that. I jointed it both ends and it had to be perfect incase the fretboard doesn't cover it? Didn't know how it would get treated on down the line so better safe than sorry. Seems a lot of folk just use PVA's, if you use CA remember to seal the channels to prevent wicking into the end grain fibers which might show under finish as yellowing. Good luck, post pics. We all want to clap for U. 
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:07 am ] |
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thanks guys, I do use teflon and CA. josh |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:55 am ] |
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Josh, What everyone mentions is the good stuff and good news. Making the joint is not hard at all. However I must be the bearer of bad news. If you have not done a continuous ring rosette in MOP before, you may be disappointed in the appearance. Even with absolutely perfect fitting joints there will be distinct joint lines highly visible at every joint, and they will be one of the first things you minds eye focuses on. There is no fix for this issue with MOP. The light color just makes the joints stand out. Abalone on the other hand due to its multi patterning and darker multi colors, hides the joint lines well. Like camouflage the ever changing patterns and colors hides the sharp edges of the joint from the minds eye by giving it something more interesting to process. The joint lines are still there but of very little importance to the minds eye. However with MOP they kind of jump out due to the light color. This is the reason you see most MOP rosettes as geometrically divided ring rosettes, |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:13 am ] |
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Michael I am aware how this is going to look. The customer specifically requested white MOP to go with the white MOP inlay he is getting on my fretboard. MOP would not have been my choice, but it is what he wants. I am going to try cutting the pieces into equal lengths so the pieces at least look uniform. Josh |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:24 am ] |
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That is the best idea |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:26 am ] |
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The second question that comes to mind is the concentricity of each ring. You say a double MOP ring with Brazilian Rosewood in the middle? That means two diameters of pearl? When doing the OLF SJ2 in Abalone solid shell, I just inlaid it to the ring size on the package to make sure the concentricity of the rings matched the diameter of the precut pearl. Looks like that might come into play just a bit. Josh, it looks like this will be a little harder, but I bet the overall effect will be good. I too have a customer with MOP on the brain, not only for the rosette but the entire top purfling. We're in the same boat, bud..... |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:36 am ] |
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I have had 5 commisions that the inisial order started out as MOP purf and rosette. I keep a 18" long x 8" wide piece of scrap spruce with three rosettes inlaid into it. all are rosewood major rings with bwb/mop/bwb rings and the same thing in red abalone, green abalone and Paua abalone. I show this board to try to talk the client out of MOP perf or continous ring rosettes. I did this because the only MOP perf job I ever did got changed after the fact. What a pain that was  In the long run all the clients changed either to abalone or a divided pie ring MOP rosette. |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:52 am ] |
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Josh, What I used to do when I did the solid shell rosettes was to make a mitre box of sorts for the curved shell. I would cut a groove just like I was going to inlay the shell then make a slot at the correct angle for a razor saw then insert the shell and saw both ends. I hope this makes sense to you. It works great. I believe I got this idea from Cumpianos book. |
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| Author: | old man [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:13 am ] |
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Josh, if you'll angle the ends back a little when cutting or sanding, the joint will be much tighter looking. Ron |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:17 am ] |
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Lots of great tips and thanks everyone. Michael I like your idea of a sample rosette board and I will add it to my list of things to make. Bruce I know what your saying but I don't think it is an issue here. I have done a number of wood/shell rosettes like this and they all work great. You just break the shell a little bit more to go around the tighter curves. So in this case I will be sure to cut my pieces so that they go around the smallest ring nicely. Brad I understand. I will check Cumpiano's book. I'm going out to work on this right now (I have to make the wood part first). Hopefully I will have a picture of the completed rosette by tomorrow. Josh |
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| Author: | 1bordeaux [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:30 am ] |
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Josh, Another tip for the mop; You can put the shell in a shallow baking dish with just enough water to cover the blanks. This will indicate the true "flash" of the shell and enable you to match the joint color as best as possible.(Do NOT,I repeat, Do not bake in oven  )
You might also get the largest blanks possible and set up a circle cutter to keep the entire rosette down to 8-10 pieces, meaning less joints. Good luck! |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:29 am ] |
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Thanks Paul I'm just on my way out to install the shell. josh |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:46 am ] |
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Josh, I do my Abalone solid shell purfs just as Brad explained. I have a 'curved' mitre box mad out of a piece of spruce top wood. I routed a curved channel at the diametre want and the the width of the shell. then trim with a razor saw, remembering to keep the pieces oriented to each other. You can fine tune with snad paper. Yup...let us know how it works for you! Thanks Shane |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:14 am ] |
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Snad paper - is that a BC thing .. get that at Windsor Plywood right !!!! 
What part of the snad do they make the paper from anyway ???
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:21 am ] |
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Some times we refer to it as snod paper, depends on which part of BC your from. 
Windsor Plywood! isn't that in ONT somewere? |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:22 am ] |
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I say just send the work to Lance. He'd be happy to do it for you. Everyone! |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:30 am ] |
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Here are a couple I just did, both are red ab, the koa one has shell I made, about 130 thou wide, the braz one is 1/16 curved strips, same radius was used for both rings - works fine. 
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:30 am ] |
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and the braz one, double rings .. 
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:35 am ] |
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I tried shad and haddock but they were both too soft, I found snad and they made my fingers get all messed up...I am typing impaired! 
Hey...I need to talk to you about double neck acoustics..if you are willing! Shane |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:42 am ] |
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Shane ... Nope .. Windsor the town is, but Windsor Ply is all over the parts of BC I have been to - one in North Van, one off Lougheed Hwy in Vancouver, one in Duncan, bought nice wood at one time or another from them all. In fact, my first acoustic was built from a beeswing figured and quartered piece of what I thought was a heavy mahogany (hey, 1995 or so, what did I really know then) from the Duncan store - turned out to be eucalyptus - made a beauty guitar. A couple years later, same store, bought some unreal curl and burl soft maple - guy even let me take half the board, the end that I wanted !!!! Still have enough of that for another electric top. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:50 am ] |
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I was only rubbin' ya Tony. Just like you were rubbin' Shane. Us BC boys have to stick up for one another you know. I love Windsor Plywood. There is one in Langley and in Chilliwack as well. The main store in Burnaby (the Lougheed Hwy location) is awsome, they realy get some cool stuff in there. Oh buy the way... totally cool rosettes.  |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:37 am ] |
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Wow Tony, I just had a look at your site for the first time, doing a little research into beveled armrests, and Im just blown away at the calibre of your guitars - very nice stuff indeed! Great inlays and great rosettes too. Cheers charliewood |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:46 am ] |
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Yep, Tony's work is always top notch, proud he's an OLFer also!
Serge |
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